CD-4 for lichen spot testing?

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  • #33020

    Hi all,

    Has anyone tried using CD-4 (Colour Developing Agent 4) for lichen spot testing?

    The British Lichen Society Bulletin no. 60 Summer 1987 (page 31) mentions the use of CD-4 as a possible substitute for Pd.

    CD-4 seems to be more widely available, more stable, and potentially less toxic.

    I would love to know if anyone has had any success using it?

    Thanks in advance!

    #46545
    Neil Sanderson
    Senior Moderator

      I did look at this briefly a few years ago and did not find that the chemical was that available, if that is the same one mentioned in a 1980/90s BLS Bulletin. The process was no longer used by amateurs in kit from (killed by digital) and the chemical was only available in large drums from India.

      Have you found a source of small amounts?

      Neil

      #46546
      Anonymous

        CD-4 is very similar to p-phenylenediamine and has the same uses and toxicity (but it would be more stable) as it is more expensive there is no reason to change one’s habits in lichenology… (there are small quantities for sale on e-bay).

        Alain

        #46547

        Hi Neil,

        There are various EU-based analogue photography shops selling small quantities (including Qoppa photografica & Axel Colour International on ebay). I think there’s been a recent resurgence of popularity in analogue photography and at-home darkroom kits (perhaps triggered by the sudden influx of AI generated images?).

        I have ordered some CD4 from Qoppa Photografica – I will let you know how I get on with it & maybe make a post here with some results!

        Thanks!

        #46548

        Hi Alain,

        Unfortunately Pd is not easily available to the layperson (unless affiliated with an institution/organization). Fisher, Sigma-Aldrich etc do not sell to private individuals – or at least, that has been my experience.

        I did not find CD4 to be prohibitively expensive (~£46 for 100g + VAT + postage, excluding customs charges).

        Anyone already using Pd would have no need to switch – ideally, I too would use Pd since it’s tried & tested.

        #46549
        Mark Powell
        Participant

          Hi CinnabarRed,

          You might be the ideal person to make a modern comparison and review of the merits and disadvantages of CD-4 compared to Pd, but only if you are interested in taking on this challenge. Whether or not you want to do this, I can send you some Pd crystals (I have plenty), free of charge, and I could also include some specimens of things which tend to give weak reactions which would provide a good challenge for CD-4. I have in mind for instance, most specimens of Halecania viridescens which, although the literature might state ‘Pd+ red’, in reality often gives at best a weak dirty orange reaction. If CD-4 can produce some sort of discernible reaction on H. viridescens then it might well provide a useful reagent for those who can’t procure Pd.

          #46550
          Jonhudsonecology
          Participant

            This is an interesting post. I can’t get hold of pd from anywhere and an alternative is of interest. Where do people get pd?

            Thanks for any info!

            Jon

            #46551
            Mark Powell
            Participant

              I agree that this is an interesting post, investigating a source of a Pd substitute for those who can’t get hold of the real thing.

              As for getting hold of Pd itself, I managed to purchase a couple of kilos soon after I started to study lichens and when I realised how difficult it was to get hold of. I can supply small quantities of Pd crystals, free of charge (within UK), to anyone who has a genuine interest in lichen studies and who reassures me that they have read about and understood the potential health risks. I treat Pd with respect but I am not personally concerned about the minimal exposure to it that results from careful and frugal usage of it. I always appreciate it if anyone who receives some Pd from me sends me some stamps or other token acknowledgement of the small amount of trouble and expense of sending it out. I supply it in resealable plastic bags (triple-bagged to minimise any risk of spillage) which should be fine for long term storage but some prefer to transfer it to small glass bottles. The important thing is to try to minimise oxidation and the most important things are to keep it dry and minimise the air it is in contact with. Anyone with a genuine purpose for using Pd, including general amateur lichen recording, can private message me on this website or can probably find an email address for me on the BLS website under the ‘Contact Us’ tab (Local Contacts).

              If anyone knows of other sources of Pd then it is always useful to hear of them.

              #46552
              Mark Powell
              Participant

                It may be useful if I remind people of the two main ways of using Pd.

                The best and preferred method is to drop a couple of drops of alcohol (meths, vodka or other strong ethanol you have to hand) on to a very few crystals of Pd (much less than a pinch of salt). This makes a very strong solution of Pd which can be transferred to the specimen using a cocktail stick, corner of a razor blade or fine glass rod. The traditional container in which to make the solution is a laboratory watch glass but I often use an old bottle top which can then be wrapped and discarded when finished with. You don’t have to trash the tiny amount of Pd in the ‘watch glass’ after the first use. It will soon dry and can then be kept covered for several more uses. Pd oxidises rapidly and becomes useless when in solution but oxidises slowly when dry. You will know when the crystals in the watch glass are getting too oxidised because they go dark (blackish) in colour. I suggest keeping the watch glass covered in between uses because the powdery (recrystallised) residue can disperse in air currents and, as well as the potential health risk with Pd dust in the air, any escapee dust can cause permanent dark stains on anything it comes into contact with. If you are at all house proud it is probably best to use Pd in a garage or shed.

                All spot tests (K, C and Pd) are best made on dry material, using frugal spots of strong reagent and observed under a dissecting microscope. Of course we often want to conduct spot tests in the field and this is fine as long as we realise that the reactions may be weak or even missed altogether, especially if the specimen tested is at all damp or we clumsily dump an excessively large drop of reagent on it. The traditional way of using Pd in the field is Steiner’s solution, an aqueous solution of Pd made stable by the addition of sodium sulphite. Steiner’s solution has a deserved reputation for producing weak reactions. This is because Pd is sparingly soluble in water. I think I can claim to have made the simple innovation of a strong and stable solution, Powell’s alcoholic Steiner’s solution. Pd is readily soluble in alcohol, sodium sulphite readily soluble in water. I use something like vodka as a happy mixture of alcohol and water in which to create a strong, perhaps even saturated solution of both sodium sulphite and Pd. This creates a strong solution of Pd which can be in used in the field and usually lasts for several months. I only make up about 5 mils at a time, plenty for numerous tests.

                #46553

                Hi Mark,

                Thank you for your kind offer!

                I would be very grateful if you would be willing to send me some Pd and any specimens you think might be useful.

                I would love to attempt a comparison! :D

                The CD-4 was delivered to me this week without any issues.

                Your tips on using & storing Pd are extremely helpful and much appreciated – the alcoholic Steiner’s solution is a great idea!

                I will definitely be treating both chemicals with an abundance of caution.

                Thanks again!

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