How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Please try to include photos to show all parts of the fungus, eg top, stem, and gills.
Note any smells, and associated trees or plants (eg oak, birch). A spore print can be very useful.
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MaxRum
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How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by MaxRum » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:16 pm

Hi, Is there a good trick how to distinguisg Lepista nuda and Lepista sordida in the field and a spore print without going into dissecting microcopy?

Eg. here are two specimens.
Spore print initially white then cream when copious.
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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by MaxRum » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:34 pm

Spore prints
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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by mollisia » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:11 pm

Hello,

spore print colour is the same in both, the spores are slightly different but not very much.

The best differenciating characters are the smell (+/- none in sordida, typically like perfume in nuda), the hygrophanous cap in sordida (not so in nuda) and often the colour and the fruitbody size.

best regards,
Andreas

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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by MaxRum » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:24 pm

Thanks, I judged these two as L. sordida , mainly because the stem is thinner (7 and 9mm) and overall a less robust mushroom, violet hue of the cap is not that strong and is more on the brownish side. I'll add the smell and the hygrophanus characters to remember. Pity the spores are almost similar. :? :|

Anyone else?

Thanks

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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by adampembs » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:41 pm

MaxRum wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:24 pm
Thanks, I judged these two as L. sordida ,
I agree. Here is Lepista nuda. it is more robust, and your specimens look hygrophanous as Andreas said.
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Lepista nuda
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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by roy betts » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:07 pm

I disagree, I think the images are all nuda. You won't be able to tell if they are hygrophanous until they are partially dried out.
I use the key in FAN3 (1995). In it, Noordeloos & Kuyper describe two forms of nuda; f.nuda with a stipe 5-15mm wide and f. gracilis with stipe 3-7mm. The stem of sordida is 2-7mm wide. They say that in their typical states nuda and sordida are easy to distinguish but there is a big overlap. I certainly have found completely violaceous specimens (nuda) which are very small and have consequently narrow stipes. But even small specimens of nuda seem of be 'tricholomatoid' whereas sordida usually seems to be of 'collyboid' stature.
As regards smell, the comments in FAN3 are:
NUDA: not very distinctive, rather delicate, weakly flower like when fresh, slightly unpleasant when crushed.
SORDIDA: weak, often with aromatic component, sometimes more or less cyanidic or slightly rancid.

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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by mollisia » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:41 pm

Hello,

I agree to Roy, that I also won't be able to guess which of the two is on the foto.
But I clearly disagree with FAN regarding the smell: I have nearly never had someone who didn't recognize the rather intense, typical smell of Lepista nuda, which is so strong that some people don't like to collect and cook this fungus thought the taste is agreable. On the other hand in L. sordida I never recognized a definite smell, and if so then towards earthy, dusty smell, but never sweetish, flowerish or like perfume.

L. sordida has a very braod range of colours, from dirty greyish-violetish or even flesh-coloured (nearly like Calocybe carnea!) to intensly violet (even more intense than L. nuda). But what L. sordida usually lacks is what L. nuda usually shows: the violet cap colour being removed by a reddishbrown tinge starting from the middle of the cap and which goes sometimes up to the margin.

As your foto shows such a redbrown cap discolouration, and the fruitbodies look more tricholomatoid than collybioid, I woud tend a little bit more towards L. nuda than towards L. sordida ...
But we cannot judge about the smell and neither on the spore size, unfortunately

best regards,
Andreas

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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by adampembs » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:06 am

I based the ID on what I thought the graduation of colour on the cap due to hygrophanity (if such a word exists!). I didn't know the colour variation was so much; as the ones near me are much more grey and uniform.
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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by MaxRum » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:03 am

I am reverting to this topic after finding of another Lepista nuda/sordida specimen here in Maaltese islands. The smell was mildly fungoid and earthy (no aromatic aromas picked up), the colour is brownish on site then becoming beige and pale after a 2 days from collection . Taste fungoid but leaves a certain aftertaste, like soil too. I can produce a spore picture later on. I decided that this is L. sordida but I'm still struggling between the two. If the smell is distinctive - this is then an easy Lepista sordida. Also, I cannot see the reddish-bronze colour from the centre invading the greyish-violet colour of the cap of a typical L. nuda.
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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by adampembs » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:23 am

What is the size?
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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by MaxRum » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:26 am

roy betts wrote:
Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:07 pm
NUDA: not very distinctive, rather delicate, weakly flower like when fresh, slightly unpleasant when crushed.
SORDIDA: weak, often with aromatic component, sometimes more or less cyanidic or slightly rancid.
Is it sordida the flour-fungoid smell and nuda the aromatic ???

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Re: How to distinguish between Lepista nuda and L. sordida

Post by MaxRum » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:38 am

This is helpful:
Flora Georgia
Flora Agaricina

Spores: Obovoid, pole with apiculum more acute than other pole, verricose
(6.2) 6.5 - 7.1 (7.5) × (3.8) 4.2 - 4.9 (5)
Q = (1.3) 1.4 - 1.6 (1.7) ; N = 22
Me = 6.8 × 4.5, Qe = 1.5
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Spores in cotton blue (sorry for the dirt!)

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